Successfully Marketing for Your Sales Team with Pam Didner, Ep #75

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This is a podcast episode titled, Successfully Marketing for Your Sales Team with Pam Didner, Ep #75. The summary for this episode is: <p>Pam notes that sales and marketing think and approach the same objectives very differently from the get-go. Sales and marketing teams have the same business and revenue objectives, but they usually differ in their approach. Salespeople say “accounts, “ whereas marketers say “buyer personas.” Salespeople focus on the bottom of the funnel, and marketing focuses on the top. Salespeople are driven by short-term objectives (i.e., quotas they have to meet), but marketers focus on long-term objectives (such as building brand awareness).&nbsp;</p><p>But once you understand the differences, you can find commonalities and ways to work together. Can your teams do a joint initiative? Can marketing help build sales templates? Pam recommends that sales and marketing teams find one or two projects to work on together.&nbsp;</p><h2>Outline of This Episode</h2><ul><li>[2:26] How to get to know your customer deeply</li><li>[6:22] The number of “you” should be more than “we”&nbsp;</li><li>[11:18] Understand your company’s martech stack + processes</li><li>[16:06] How to determine the tools to invest in</li><li>[22:45] Proper integration of sales and marketing&nbsp;</li><li>[25:40] How to improve the quality of your MQLs</li><li>[30:58] What is account-based marketing?</li><li>[33:37] Kick off the year developing a marketing plan</li><li>[36:52] How to successfully write a book&nbsp;</li><li>[41:15] Get connected with Pam Didner&nbsp;</li></ul><h2>Resources &amp; People Mentioned</h2><ul><li><a href=";linkCode=df0&amp;hvadid=312118059795&amp;hvpos=&amp;hvnetw=g&amp;hvrand=7994838775095389&amp;hvpone=&amp;hvptwo=&amp;hvqmt=&amp;hvdev=c&amp;hvdvcmdl=&amp;hvlocint=&amp;hvlocphy=9012371&amp;hvtargid=pla-451192925983&amp;psc=1" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Everybody Writes</a>&nbsp;by Ann Handley</li></ul><h2>Connect with Pam Didner</h2><ul><li>Pam’s&nbsp;<a href="" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Website</a></li><li>Check out&nbsp;<a href="" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Pam’s YouTube channel</a></li><li>Pam’s podcast:&nbsp;<a href="" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">B2B Marketing and More</a></li><li>Follow Pam on&nbsp;<a href="" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Twitter</a></li><li>Connect on&nbsp;<a href="" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">LinkedIn</a></li><li><a href="" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">The Modern AI Marketer</a></li><li><a href="" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Effective Sales Enablement</a></li><li><a href="" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Global Content Marketing</a></li></ul><h2>Connect With the Content Callout Team</h2><ul><li><a href="" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"></a>&nbsp;</li></ul><p><br></p><p><strong>Subscribe to CONTENT CALLOUT on</strong></p><p><a href=";ct=podnews_podcast" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"><strong>Apple Podcasts</strong></a><strong>,&nbsp;</strong><a href="" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"><strong>Spotify</strong></a><strong>,&nbsp;</strong><a href="" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"><strong>Google Podcasts</strong></a></p>
How to get to know your customer deeply
03:55 MIN
The number of “you” should be more than “we”
04:56 MIN
Understand your company’s martech stack + processes
04:47 MIN
How to determine the tools to invest in
06:37 MIN
Proper integration of sales and marketing
02:52 MIN
How to improve the quality of your MQLs
05:19 MIN
What is account-based marketing?
02:38 MIN
What is account-based marketing?
02:38 MIN
Kick off the year developing a marketing plan
03:14 MIN
How to successfully write a book
04:21 MIN
Get connected with Pam Didner
02:03 MIN

Kayla: Hey, everybody. Welcome to the Content Callout. You've got Kayla here. My guest today is Pam Didner, and I'm really excited because Pam is so fun to talk to you and has such a big personality. Pam's the founder of Relentless Pursuit and she's a marketing consultant, writer, speaker, podcaster, and the author of three books. She specializes in all things B2B marketing, communications, consulting, corporate training, and more. Pam's clients are huge. She has brands like 3M and Southwest Airlines. Pam's got a lot to say and some really great tips today, so I hope you enjoy today's discussion. Hey Pam, thanks so much for joining me on the Content Callout today.

Pam Didner: My pleasure. Its wonderful to be here.

Kayla: So before we kick off, maybe you can just tell all of our listeners who you are, where you are and what you do.

Pam Didner: Yeah, that'll be great. Hi, Pam Didner here. I'm so happy to be on this podcast with Kayla and I am based in Raleigh, North Carolina. So if you have never been to the state, you should check it out. And I'm a B2B marketing consultant and B2B through and through really, and I have written two books, actually two and a half, I would say, Global Content Marketing, how to scale content across regions, Effective Sales Enablement, how to support sales as a marketer and I also wrote ebook is actually on Amazon, The Modern AI Marketers. I did extensive research on artificial intelligence and I talk about how that will impact the marketers and all the marketing fields in general.

Kayla: That is pretty impressive Pam, three books.

Pam Didner: I'm pretty sure you can do it too.

Kayla: Well. We might have to get some tips from you about that before we finish today, but-

Pam Didner: Oh, yeah. Let's talk about that. No problem.

Kayla: Kick us off. What are your three rapid fire tips that all marketers should know?

Pam Didner: Okay. Number one, know your customer well, I mean know it very, very well and know it deeply. Right. Number two, number of you should be more the number of we, and I can explain that later. Number three, understand your company's Martech stack and the processes.

Kayla: Okay. Well, let's dig into those for a minute first. I love you said, know your customers and know them well. I feel that's the caveat that a lot of people miss, so maybe you can dig into that for us.

Pam Didner: Yeah. So, when I talk about know your customer well is not about having a buyers persona. Having buyers persona the first step. When I say, know it well, it's not like, oh, that you know who they are, you gave this person a name and the hobby is about skiing. No, it's really interesting and [ crosstalk 00:02:55] customers pain points, their challenges, their aspiration, what makes them tick. That's what I'm talking about, know them well. I'm a B2B marketing consultant and my customers are B2B marketers. And a lot of them are introvert and a lot of them don't like to be on social media. A lot than actually prefer to still use email. And the 70% of them, if they want to get content from me, they still look at it on desktop. So it's really about that knowing your customers very, very well and the know is so deeply in terms of how they consume the content, where do they go to find information and the where do they go to address their challenges. That's what I mean deeply.

Kayla: So before we get into tip number two, because I definitely want you to expand on that as well. How do you get to know your customers this well? I think it's a challenge for people, even when they're trying to set up a buyer persona sometimes to even [ crosstalk 00:03:56]anything about that and how deep to go and you're talking about going even beyond that. So [crosstalk 00:04:02]-

Pam Didner: Yes. It's actually hard. I'm not going to pretend is easy. It's kind of like... I hate saying this, like we are all in relationship. Right. And the relationship is complicated. Even I marry my husband for 20 years, can I say, I know him well? Well, I kind of know his routine. I kind of know what he likes to eat, but do I really know him, know him well, even though we've been together for 20 years? I wouldn't say yes. However, we talk all the time. Right. It's that communication of like through talking, through communication. Communicating [ crosstalk 00:00:04:36]-

Kayla: You're not giving me very much hope as a single lady.

Pam Didner: There's still hope, there's still hope. And I think the easiest way is talk to your customers. Right. And the marketers tend not to have a chance or opportunities to talk to the customers directly. But I do encourage you that when you have a chance, talk to your customer directly and sometimes just having conversations. Sometimes just like," Hey, you've been using our product for a little while. So can you share with us in terms of what you think", or," Hey, is our product addressing your challenges." Just casual conversation. If you have a community, leverage that. Right. Try to build a channel to talk to them. I think talking is the good way to actually get to know your customers little by little. So that's one I want to share with everybody is I don't think a lot of marketers make an effort, myself included, talk to the customers on regular basis.

Kayla: I think sometimes there's a little bit of a hesitation there because sometimes people are scared. They're scared to get the feedback sometimes.

Pam Didner: Don't be, seriously. Just reach out. Trust me, they would love to talk to you a lot of the time. Yes, you are totally right. When you kind of open that Pandora's box, you don't know what to expect. There's always good and bad and ugly that comes with it and you need to embrace that. You just need to embrace that.

Kayla: Yeah. I think it's hard to be able to move forward and to grow, just like in a marriage, if you don't have that information.

Pam Didner: Yeah. Sometimes I was like," Oh, well, my husband like that? You know what? Let me just ask him."

Kayla: Number two, because I'm really, really curious about this one. Number of you should be more the number of we.

Pam Didner: Yes. So the reason I said that is... Actually, I got this feedback from a good friend, Ann Handley and she wrote a book Everybody Writes and was actually a great book. If you haven't read one of her books, you should check it out. And this is really about email. If you write an email, you should count how many we and how many I versus how many you that you use, especially in the business writing and especially business and marketing writing. We tend to talk about our products. We tend to talk about our companies. We tend to talk about us more than we talk about our customers. Right." Oh, we have a new promotion. You should check it out," Or" Let me tell you about our products", this and that. We start talking about features. Right. And everything we write tend to be we, we, we, we, we. Does that make sense? crosstalk so a lot of time when you write, you should turn that around. If you have this challenge, let me talk to you about this. If you run into these issues, " Well, you know what? Our product probably can help you." It's like writing it, but you turn that around and talk from their perspective. So if you do that, you should count the number of the you you use versus the number of the we you use. And in general, number of you use in a piece of content should be more than number of we.

Kayla: And you know what? I think that that's just like a really, you really simple litmus test that any of us can do. Sometimes people get hung up on writing. It feels really, really [ crosstalk 00:08:06]and by the time you've been slogging through it and you're finally done, you're like, I never want to look at this piece of content ever again.

Pam Didner: All the time. All the time, it happens to me. There are times when you write something it's about your personal experience, you're going to use a lot of I, that makes a lot of sense, but you still need to think when you write something it's about personal experience, you need to write it in a way that relate it to your reader. Does that make sense? You can talk about your experience using I all the way through, but some point, you still need to relate to that, like the person who reading it might have similar experience that you are sharing. So in that case, when you are talking about I, which is your experience, but you are talking in the way that you are pulling yourself out and sharing that experience with someone else and how you deal with it and what your journey is. But that resonates too when you use a lot of I, but that's coming from the experience you are sharing that some other people can resonate. Does that make sense? So I want to make sure people understand when you still writing something that's personable and you are sharing stuff that's I, you use a lot of I, that makes sense in that context. But I'm talking about when you are trying to talk about your products, you need to talk about your product in the context, how it's going to solve your customer's problem, not just talking about the features and the benefit and how good they are. I know they're wonderful but again, how does that address the customer's challenges and pain point?

Kayla: I think you're totally spot on here because there are a lot. I see this all the time in [crosstalk 00:09: 44 ]. Everybody wants to talk about features and benefits and [ crosstalk 00:09:49] also too though, they kind of skip over like some of the educational points of it and the chance to actually connect with their audience on it. And they assume that everybody is deeply embroiled in the features as them and sometimes you kind of have to bring it back to the basics.

Pam Didner: I 100% agree with you. Yeah, a lot of time its coming back to like cybersecurity 101 and you want to do a deep dive in the product features but the earlier stage is really about educating them about specific topic or a specific challenge they encounter and how you as a company is going to help them. Does that make sense? I think it's a different way kind of approach it and I was a corporate marketer for a long period of time and I was one of them," I want to talk about products and features", but-

Kayla: Hey, guilty is charged. I think all of [ inaudible 00:10:43].

Pam Didner: ...but they are place and time for that. Seriously, there will be time for you to address the product and features, but you have to understand what sales stages or the customer journey they are in and then determine what are the appropriate talking points to share that with them. And sometimes at a very early stage is much higher level.

Kayla: Well, and I think that goes back to your first tip, which is you have to know your customers-

Pam Didner: Customers well, and know it deeply. And that's hard and I'm telling you that's very, very hard and I'm not saying that's easy.

Kayla: So these two tips connect. What about tip number three?

Pam Didner: Okay. Understand your company's MarTech and the processes. So this, I have come to realize as a marketer, I was a traditional marketers. That means I did not grow up with mobile phone. I did not grow up with social media. I did not grow with SEO. Right. So when I started [ crosstalk 00:11:41] I'm pretty old, can you tell?

Kayla: Not at all.

Pam Didner: You are sweet. Love you.

Kayla: A 100% true.

Pam Didner: So I didn't grow up with that. And when I was doing the marketing, it was print, it was out of home, billboard. It was radio. It was TV[crosstalk 00:12: 05 ]-

Kayla: Mailers.

Pam Didner: Yeah. And mailers and postal mail. And each one of them, it's kind of like a separate discipline. Right. You do post mail, you do post mail, you do TV commercial, you do TV commercial. But in the digital realm, which is in the digital marketing, everything is connected. Like when you create an ebook, you need to think about how ebook can be used for email marketing. When you create an ebook, you only have to think about how that needs to be displayed on your website. When you create an ebook, you need to think about, okay, I need to write a social media post to promote it. Does that make sense? The one piece of content, all of a sudden, I was talking about email marketing, your website experience, and also the social media post that related to it. I'm not even talking about how you can repurpose that ebook maybe to like three different videos or you can do it like two different podcast episodes. Right. There's a way to repurposing the long form content. I'm not even touching on that. Right. So all of a sudden on digital side, everything is connected. The reason that traditional marketers are overwhelmed, in the past, they can see every single marketing discipline as a separate marketing field but now everything is connected that require you to think differently. When you create an ebook, you have to think about how you're going to promote it and what kind of channel you're going to use. The way to actually think that based on my experience of making that transition from traditional marketer to a digital marketer, you need to start understanding the marketing technology that will be used for different marketing channels. Once you understand the MarTech stack and also the processes, it opens up for you to see things a little bit differently. Does that make sense? So the way I see it is when somebody was talking to me, you say, oh, ebook. Okay. Before I was like, okay, I create a ebook, check that off. But if somebody say you have to do a campaign for the ebook and you're like, Oh, I can probably use that for email marketing, or let me thinking about, let's look into how this is done. What is the process and step that's follow and what tools I used to make that happen. Now, the ebook... You know what? This ebook, we can actually do a pay media. All right. Okay. So we are going to work with a couple pay media agencies to make that happen. Well, let's talk about it. What kind of process to make that happen? So they promoted our ebook and," Oh, this needs to be our website."" Oh my God. It needs to be our website. Okay. Let me check with my webmaster how did that happen." So it upload it on the website and what is the user experience. So in order to actually kind of help yourself connect the dots, you really have to understand the process. Once you understand the process, all of a sudden you open a door for you in terms of how you see the different marketing channels are connected with each other, it help you think a little bit differently. Does that make sense?

Kayla: It does. I actually love this because you're talking about before you even... Because so many people are just like, create the content, create the content.

Pam Didner: Click on no, you cannot do that anymore.

Kayla: We're talking about like, no, think it through from end to end-

Pam Didner: End, that's right. A to Z.

Kayla: ..and then see where it connects. And I think that that's actually a really, really smart way to do that. The other thing too about that is you're talking about MarTech stack and we have a lot of different tools that are disposed [ crosstalk 00:15:22]-

Pam Didner: Yeah. Oh totally.

Kayla: Sometimes there's overlap on those tools and we don't even realize it.

Pam Didner: Yes. So true. That's another thing. That's why I bring the marketing technology upfront. In a lot of time, it's backend. Marketers, what do we care about the most? Oh, the creative, the copywriting, the image we select, we care about those kind of things [crosstalk 00:15:46] but those are important. Those are important. Don't take me wrong. They all are. But we tend not to be strong in terms of understanding or set up the process to flow the content from one point to another or move the customer data from one point to another. Is that helpful?

Kayla: Yeah, definitely. So while we're kind of talking about tools and stuff right now, because one of the frustrations that I often face and hear of other facing is with the addition of more and more and more tools all the time, how do you know which ones are going to be the most helpful to you?

Pam Didner: I struggle with that myself. So just want to tell everybody, if you are struggling with what tool is actually good for you and which tool that you should use, you know what? Don't feel bad. Everybody struggles with that. So one thing I want to tell everyone is that, everybody struggles with that. Nobody has panacea, nobody has figured that one out yet. So with that being said, that's just, oh, relax for a minute. It's okay. I pause for a minute for a reason. Let me tell you why. When you select a technology that you think is going to work for you today, I can assure you couple months down the row, there will be another technology or another platform that come along will serve you even better. You know why? Because that's what technology is all about, they continue to move, they continue you to evolve, they continues to accelerate. Does that make sense? So even if you think you picked the great technology or great platform to use today, I can assure you a year from now you might need to change it. So the mindset of accepting that there's always a technology and a new platform out there is better than yours, you just have to accept. Does that make sense? There are so many tools that's coming out. Kayla, you guys work with so many different startup. How many startup that you guys have been working with? They are creating tool and they were like,"Oh my God, this is the best." But then if they don't continue to innovate and adding the codes and continue to refine your product, they will be obsolete in no time. Right.

Kayla: Integration. All of it.

Pam Didner: Exactly. So always just embrace it, that the technology you choose today may not work, say, a year from now. That just mentality you need to set up in your mind. Second thing is don't that technology determine what you need to do. Understand what you want to accomplish first and source the technology. Okay. Do you see the difference? So don't say I will use this. I will use a CRM. I want to use the Salesforce. Well, before you choose Salesforce, I'm just using that as an example. Well, understand what your needs are on your sales side and the marketing side, and then determine what kind of tool you want to use. So understand your objectives, understand your, again, comes back, your process and what you want to accomplish and understand that deeply then select the tool, why you think is the best, at the time that you are making a decision.

Kayla: Well, and I think that at the time there are some considerations that you can make as well. Like how easy is it for me to add licenses to this tool of my [ crosstalk 00:19:00]-

Pam Didner: True. True. You have a different decision making criteria or selection criteria, and then you'll mention one of them can be like one of the selection criteria.

Kayla: Yeah. For sure. Yeah. Selection criteria. It's so important because... You're right, Pam. We're just going to have more and more and more tools [crosstalk 00:19:18].

Pam Didner: Yeah, exactly. So I'm a marketing consultant. Right. So it's a very small boutique and a consulting firms and I use over, guess what? 40 tools.

Kayla: Woo.

Pam Didner: And at any given time, email is a tool[crosstalk 00: 19: 31 ] Slack is a tool. Right. I have accounting software. I have Zoom and I do live streaming, so I use StreamYard. If I'm telling you a number of tools... And I also trim my videos, so I actually download a couple apps, so I can do a very quick trimming and editing. Just a number of the tools I have is freaking insane. 40 or 50[crosstalk 00:19:55].

Kayla: inaudible that is insane. You just blew my mind. My jaw hit the floor. You said inaudible so many. So what about consolidation then? Is there ever a point where you will try to consolidate your tools? Or what advice do you give as a marketing consultant about that?

Pam Didner: I do. So I intentionally try to pare down, pare down, pare down the tools. Like I said, any tools I mention, I'm not affiliated with any one of them. I'm not here to promote any tools. So please bear in mind when I'm sharing examples with you, I'm just sharing an example, but I want to make sure everybody understand I'm not promoting the tools. So for example, I use Zoho and Zoho is kind of like a tailor for small businesses and with all the platforms that wrap into a suite. So in Zoho, they have campaigns, which is, they let you do the marketing automation. They also have a CRM, so you can tie directly with sales. And they have a chat, a platform that can actually integrated directly with your website. They also have a project management tool you can use. They also have a Sign, which is very similar to DocuSign that you can actually use. On top of it, they also have a survey forms. If you want to embed a survey into your email campaign, you can do that.

Kayla: Right there you have consolidation.

Pam Didner: You have consolidations. Right. So what you need to do is when you have so many tools that you use from time to time, and I'm not saying like every single quarter, but everyone year or two, you need to look at your ever growing tool that you use, and just like you said earlier, Kayla, there's a lot of SaaS space platforms, they continuously adding features. So there's a lot of tool tend to have overlapping features and benefits. You need to find out what they are and then you have to make an effort to consolidate. I do agree with that, but in general, people tend to grow and to grow and to grow and their tools and nobody's really looking to consolidate, especially in a big enterprise. So that can be an issue[crosstalk 00:21:57].

Kayla:, when we're even talking about a high growth startup, everybody's wearing 25 different hats and you don't have necessarily the person that is there monitoring all the tools too and making sure that there's no maverick spend until[crosstalk 00:22: 13 ] department to department. It's definitely a challenge, I think, for everyone.

Pam Didner: I don't think there's a answer for that one, except that if you actually do have the operations, sales operation, marketing operation, the operation function of the company that kind of look at the tools consistently. Even with that, they tend to focus on, say, sales group or the marketing group or the HR or the accounting. Does that make sense? So they look at a specific function when they actually determine how they want to pare down the tools.

Kayla: So, let me just change gears a little here. You're B2B through and through, so I think that you have lots of experience with sales departments and marketing departments.[ crosstalk 00:22:56] this is something that you and I have talked about before, so I'd love to get your opinion. Let's start at the bare bones, how should sales and marketing integrate together?

Pam Didner: Okay. So before I even start with that, I want to make sure everybody understand that sales and marketing are different. They have the same goals, the business goal, they have the same revenue goal that they want to accomplish. But the things that they are different is how they approach the things. For example, the sales people will say accounts and the marketing people will say buyers personas. Right. And sales people tend to more focus on like the bottom of the purchase funnel and the marketing tend to focus on the top of the purchasing funnel. Right. And the salespeople tend to be very short term driven, every single month, every single quarter, they have a quota, they have to meet. But for marketing, we tend to focus on long term, especially on the B2B side of things. We are talking about brand awareness. We are talking about building the brand. We are not talking about nurturing. All that, just a long term. Right. But sales are like," Yo, I need to close sales tomorrow." Right. So they are like a different mentality. So from get- go, we think a little bit differently and we approach things a little bit differently. Does that make sense? So once you understand the differences between sales and marketing, then you can see, okay, we are very different, but can we find some commonalities and can we find some commonality that we can work together? So when I talk to my clients and I always try to explain that sales and marketing are very different, they acknowledge it. Then I also encourage them. If I facilitate any kind of planning sessions for them, I will help them to find that commonality. What are some of the commonalities they can work together? Right. It can be just one joint initiative. That's integrate the marketing automation and the CRM together. Okay. Or that's define the MQL versus SQL or," Hey, we have nothing in the pipeline. Marketing, how can you help us to actually build our pipeline?" Things like that. Right. Or," We have no templates. We have no sales content. Marketing, can you help me on that?" Right. So find one or two things that you can jointly work together. I think that's a good start.

Kayla: Yeah. I think so too. I think that sometimes like when you join a team that's already preexisting too. Some of these, I don't want to say problems, but opportunities [crosstalk 00:25:22]-

Pam Didner: They are problems.

Kayla: ...inaudible preexisting. And sometimes it's hard to know where to interject yourself and what you can do. So I like that tip that you find inaudible you can work on together. But the other thing too is, how do you think that you can improve the quality of leads that you're passing off to sales? So you said, define MQL, SQL. What do think the best definition of that is?

Pam Didner: The way to improve the quality of leads is you actually have to qualify them. So the marketing tend to just pass the raw leads directly to a sales organization, unless there are people assigned on the sales side to actually kind of filter and really looking to the lead. If you just pass that or throw the leads over the fence and they expect that is going to click with the sales people, that's not going to fly. And a lot of time you have hundreds of people, thousands of people come to your website on regular basis. And even though you use IP sniffer and you kind of know who they are maybe, or they fill out some sort of form when they attend a webinar, you still have to qualify them. Does that make sense? Somebody has to kind of sort through all the MQL and the leads and then determine if this is worth passing to the sales side. And unfortunately, that responsibility is usually not very clear and in terms of who should owns it. Right. To qualify and the filter the leads. Should that be marketing's job, should that be sales job? In many organization, that part of it, it tend not to be well defined and that tend to be where the fiction engender. So honestly, that can be part of the marketing's job, that can also be part of a sales job. It really depends on how the company defined that specific roles and responsibility. But the key things is, in addition to definition, what MQL is, what SQL is, you need to make sure you qualify them. And the one way to qualify them is the salespeople needs to clearly identify ICP, which is ideal customer profile. What is the ideal customer profile on the sales side. Right. Is it a manufacturing segment with a company size over 2000 with the annual revenue of 15 million and the focus on selling product in North America? So try to identify what the ideal customer profile is so when the marketing people get the lead, they can do research and make sure whatever that lead they pass to meets that ICP or the certain selection criteria of the customers or the accounts they want to go after.

Kayla: And look, this all ties back into your tip number one, which is-

Pam Didner: Know your customers well and know them deeply.

Kayla: And you know what? I was going to ask you because you have worked with marketing and sales departments at large enterprise companies and what the difference is between those sorts of companies and then you're like, high growth startup. But at the end of the day, this part is the same.

Pam Didner: Bang. They are the same. There's no different. You need to know your customers well. The more I'm in the marketing field, the more I supporting sales, the more humble I am in terms of knowing my customers. There's no way I can actually stand up and then say," You know what? I know my customer, well." No, you will never know your customer well, just like you ever know your children well. You know what I'm saying? You raise your kids for crying out loud, it's coming from your body and you spend days and the times with them, but you still don't know in their little minds what they are thinking about and also their personality continues to evolve. Right. So it's hard.

Kayla: Well, and I think that's a valid point too. We're talking about the differences here between enterprise and startups and both still evolve, even though big enterprise companies are a little bit more established.

Pam Didner: Yeah. The thing about the big enterprises is I always feel that they have the advantages. The big enterprises, because they are so established, so they have budget, they have money and they have a big sales organization. When you have a big budget, you can do a lot of stuff. But they are also hammer or hampered, if you will, by legacy system. So they cannot move very fast [ crosstalk 00:29: 41 ]-

Kayla: Oh Lord.

Pam Didner: You know what I'm talking about? And it is like making one change is like moving a Titanic. You know what I'm saying?" Oh, we are making a turn. It's going to take a little while to turn". Anyway.

Kayla: And heaven forbid it doesn't work because then, guess what? You're not making another change for a long, long time.

Pam Didner: Yeah. That's also another thing. You brought up another good point that a lot of time, that people, especially in a startup and they're trying to get enterprise accounts, they don't fully understand in terms of," Oh my God, I don't understand why you are not taking risks." And I'm talking about startup working for the more established accounts. That's because when you take the risk and you fail in a big enterprise, it's very hard to correct the course. Does that make sense? So a lot of time they tend to take a more conservative route. And again, this is about understanding your customers. So the startup was very frustrated with a big accounts and was like," Oh my God, why can't you guys move faster? Why can't you make a decision faster? Why can't you just try this?" That's because there's a big risks involved internally. If that doesn't work, it's very hard to get people to move and to change that direction.

Kayla: So let's talk about the term account based marketing. What is account marketing, Pam? Tell us.

Pam Didner: All right. So account based marketing is just basically accounts. Like on the sales side, they don't talk about," Oh, I'm talking to IT decision makers or I'm talking to a soccer mom", with a certain kind of demographic. On the sales, they always say," I'm talking to American Express, I'm talking to HP, I'm talking to Intel." And they always mention about company names, in a way it's account. So if you are supporting sales, you have to supporting sales in terms of how they talk. Right. So when we do marketing, we tend to like," Oh, we market to IT decision makers, we market to counter marketers," but really on the sales side, they don't think that way. So when you are trying to do marketing to a specific type of customers to support your salespeople, you actually tailor your marketing effort for accounts. Does that make sense? So like maybe you are doing a very much targeted customer outreach for healthcare segments, or you are doing a very targeted customer outreach for American Express, or you are doing very targeted outreach for two or three similar customers. Does that make sense? So, that's account based marketing. So if your salespeople are selling to a specific account, you are doing marketing to support that, you are tailoring your marketing outreach to a specific account in a way that's called account based marketing. And it comes in many different forms. For example, if the customer basically said," Hey, you know what? We are going to do a private event for American Express." So you created a private event for American Express and that's pretty much account based marketing. Then if they say, Hey, you know what? To reach out to American Express and they are like 20 decision making we have to talk to and you find out who they are, you do a programmatic ads to reach out to those 25 decision makers. That's a pay media type of effort that's also account based marketing. And so account based marketing comes in many different forms. Does that make sense? So that's what I want to share with everybody in terms of account based marketing is with the marketing outreach, you do it and tailor for a specific account.

Kayla: Well, and like you said before, digital marketers, it's all connected now. So when you are making your marketing plan, you have to get back to the basics, like you said, and see how everything interconnects. So what about a marketing plan? This podcast is going to be out in Q1. A lot of people working out their marketing plans or they're already done and dusted, but what do we need to know about making marketing plans?

Pam Didner: So first of all, the marketing plan is an internal documentation. Okay. When we create the marketing plan is create kind like a role map that will guide us in terms of what will do for next year or next two or three quarters. So it's kind of like a guiding light for us and that's internal documents. So you don't see a lot of companies share their marketing plan. That's because it's internal and it's confidential. So one thing you need to know is because it's internal, you need to understand that who is going to see this marketing plan? Right. It's basically different marketing functions. Then you need to make sure everybody's marketing tactics or what they're trying to do, incorporate it into a plan. This plan also will be reviewed by the top management because you need to get budget. Right. So a lot of time we create a marketing plan because, and we need budget. Right. So it needs to be viewed by the top management. The key things about marketing plan is understand who is going to view your plan and second thing is, create a plan also to get additional headcount budget. So the marketing plan is not just to rally all the marketing functions, so everybody moving toward the same direction. Another thing is, create a marketing plan that you can also show people what your contribution is and also how many headcounts and the budget you need to make things work. That's the key thing about creating marketing plan.

Kayla: So when you create your marketing plan, how should you plan for agility?

Pam Didner: That's actually a great question. When you create a marketing plan... It depends. If you create a marketing plan to request for budget, you create it based on how your vision of how your marketing plan will run for next four quarters based on specific budget you're going to get. And once you get your budget, you probably have to pare down because we don't usually get 100% of what we ask for. So you probably have to pare down your plan. Does that make sense? So if you create your plan and you have a specific campaigns or specific activities or specific initiative that identify, you obviously have a budget associated with each one of them. And when you get your budget, then you have to prioritize, determine what are you going to do. The agility of it comes from, you have to review it on regular basis. Every single quarter, for example, COVID hit, everybody shut down. Then you have to look at your plan and was like," Oh, you know what? I need to do something very differently. We allocated$ 500,000 for events there is no event. What should we do with it [crosstalk 00:36:29]-

Kayla: inaudible events.

Pam Didner: Exactly. So I think the agility come from, in terms of, if you look at your marketing plan and know what are the activities you're going to do and how much money you're going to spend, when things pare down or when a natural disaster strikes, God forbid, hopefully nothing happen, you should be able to look at the budget and also your activities and determine what you want to do next.

Kayla: So I want to ask you this, before we wrap up here, selfishly, there's something that I just need to know, because this is something that's been on my bucket list for a long time.

Pam Didner: Okay.

Kayla: You have done it and I think a lot of people that listen, including Mark, my co- host, we've all tried to do. So tell us, Pam, how do you successfully write a book?

Pam Didner: Drink a lot of wines. Drink a lot of wine. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. We all like to create something. Internally, like humans, we are makers and we are creative creature. We like to create something, we call it our own. And the reason that we all like to create something that's because it's like a piece of art. Right. It's very hard for us like a painter or to be a sculptor because that's very hard, but we all own a pen and that sometimes it is easy to write something. So writing a book tend to be a lot of people's bucket list, including mine as well. And honestly, my original goal is to write a fictional book, then I come to realize I absolutely had no caliber. You realize when you like start writing, I was like," Oh my God, I have no talent." So I don't think I'm built for it. And I don't have talent. I don't know how to do a character development. I don't know how to... Like how the story all tie together, like me thinking how everything is connected digitally. And I don't know how to change that thinking and see how the characters are tied together and create a storyline fully. And I just acknowledge, I have no talent for that. And I was like," Oh, you know what? I'm a B2B marketers. I have done marketing for 20 something years. I supported sales and there are something I do very well, there're something I fail miserably, why don't I share some of that lessons?" And when I was looking around at that time, I was like," Oh, no one's writing about global content marketing, how to scale content across regions, and it's very niche topic. Why don't I start with that?" So I started with a very, very niche topic, nobody talk about and then that's kind of my journey. Then the key thing about writing, when I was writing for that book and I struggle initially because that was my first book, and I was thinking, should I write it like two people talking? Or should I write it like an essay, like one chapter, one topic? Or should I write it like there's a framework, so it ties everything to together? So the key things about writing a book, especially, I'm not talking about fictional book now, I'm talking about non fictional and the business book, is you have to determine, what is the framework? Once you have that framework, everything will come naturally. So I started writing the first book, like writing two people talking, and I was like," Oh, it fell apart very quickly," because I'm not very good at telling story at that time. Now I'm like," Oh yeah, I tell me anything I can tell." But wait, at that time I was not very good. So I was trying to have two people talking about a specific topic, but it failed miserably. I cannot carry it through. Then I change it to," Oh, why don't I just write it like one topic at a time, one essay, so it's 10 chapters." But it didn't work either for the topic I want to talk about and eventually what I did is create a framework. Right. So I'm talking about global content marketing. So I'm talking about, you have to plan it, you have to create a content, you have to promote it and you have to measure it. So I create a framework and that's how I develop it, the writing a book. So my recommendation for everybody writing a book, in addition to pitching to a publisher, that I can share with you a separate time, is when you are looking to writing a book, it's like, if you actually have a specific knowledge you want to share, you have to think through how do you want to put it in the way that people can understand. And lot of time it can be a framework or it can be a process or it can be that you know the topic so well, and you define it by challenges. So think about how you want to do that first, then everything else will come naturally.

Kayla: Amazing. Thank you so much for that advice.

Pam Didner: Oh, you're welcome.

Kayla: Before we say goodbye, tell everybody where they can find you what you're working on, what you're up to, how do we connect with you?

Pam Didner: Oh yeah. You can Google Pam Didner, I'm everywhere. Except take TikTok. I have not gotten my dance down. I'm working on my dance. No, I'm kidding. I'm kidding. I am actually on virtually all social media channel. So if you just type Pam Didner, you should be able to find me and I also have my website, pamdidner. com and I have my YouTube channels. And I'm a YouTuber. Can you tell? With whooping 500 subscribers. But I do make an effort, because I'm a content marketer, so I try different formats of content. I also have a podcast as well, B2B Marketing and More, so if you want to check that out, feel free. Yeah. Like I said, if you have any questions related to sales and marketing on the B2B side, reach out to me anytime. More than happy to answer your question.

Kayla: Well, amazing. Thanks so much for being with us today, Pam. This is a lot of fun.

Pam Didner: Thanks a lot. Thanks you so much for having me.

Kayla: Okay. Bye.

Pam Didner: Bye-Bye.

Kayla: Hey everyone. Thanks so much for joining us today. Wow. Pam is awesome. That was so much fun. A big thanks to Pam for joining us today and all of those amazing to tips. There were so many takeaways, but I have to say for me, rethinking your emails and communications to your clients was a big one, as well as just really, really getting to know your customers. Make sure to check out Pam's books, Global Content Marketing, and also Effective Sales Enablement, and also subscribe to the Pam Didner YouTube channel. Thanks so much for joining us today. Please leave us a rating, tell a friend and join us next time. Bye.


Pam notes that sales and marketing think and approach the same objectives very differently from the get-go. Sales and marketing teams have the same business and revenue objectives, but they usually differ in their approach. Salespeople say “accounts, “ whereas marketers say “buyer personas.” Salespeople focus on the bottom of the funnel, and marketing focuses on the top. Salespeople are driven by short-term objectives (i.e., quotas they have to meet), but marketers focus on long-term objectives (such as building brand awareness). 

But once you understand the differences, you can find commonalities and ways to work together. Can your teams do a joint initiative? Can marketing help build sales templates? Pam recommends that sales and marketing teams find one or two projects to work on together.